Next article: Zero-latency monitoring for Digidesign 002 and 003...
Should your loudspeakers have digital inputs?
An RP visitor enquires whether the Genelec 8240A with digital inputs and DSP is suitable for the home recording studio. Hmm...
Follow RecordProducer.com on Twitter...
A question from an RP visitor...
"I was interested in buying a pair of Genelec 8040A's for my home project studio, but now they have released a DSP version of the monitor called the 8240A. I currently have an Mbox (soon to be upgraded to the Digi 003 rack) and am worried that putting the signal through 2 AD/DA conversions (once through the Mbox, then the speakers) will affect the quality and latency of the sound. Does anyone have a pair? Can anyone offer advice on this subject?"
Genelec are often considered to be love 'em/hate 'em type speakers. So one question that overrides everything else is, "Do you like the Genelec sound?"
Personally, I think the Genelec sound fully deserves its place in the pro audio catalog, even though it wouldn't be my own first preference. But I'm not going to advise on preferences.
I also like Genelec because it is a go-ahead company. Loudspeaker design has stumbled forward over the last eighty odd years since the moving coil drive unit was invented. We need a few breakthroughs, and Genelec is helping the pace.
One thing I have been convinced about for a long time is that the power amplifiers ought to be inside the speaker cabinet, one per drive unit.
The line-level signal going to so-called active speakers can be split into different frequency bands and optimized for the characteristics of the drivers and cabinet. This is much harder to do at speaker level.
The only loudspeakers that should not have internal amplifiers are those that are flown in live sound systems (although some do... often Class D amplifiers for light weight)
It is a simple extension of this to say that loudspeakers should have a digital input too.
The benefit of this is that a signal can be manipulated much more effectively in the digital domain than the analog domain. So where an active loudspeaker scores over a passive speaker because of its better crossover, the digital loudspeaker scores even more highly.
So yes, I fully applaud this development.
However, to cover two other points in the question...
One is the prospect of taking an analog output from the audio interface and connecting that to the analog input of these digital speakers.
That doesn't make sense. It involves two unnecessary conversions that will do nothing but degrade the signal. In any case, the Mbox 2 has a digital output and the Digi 003 does too. Usually it's perfectly OK to connect an S/PDIF output to an AES/EBU input. The designers know what they are doing and expect that to happen.
The other point is latency. Feeding the 8240A's with a digital signal will not increase the latency. Feeding it with an analog signal will, but only by a couple of milliseconds, which I very much doubt if you would notice.
Comments on passive vs. active, analog vs. digital (loudspeakers) are welcome.
Publication date Thursday May 06, 2010
Next article: Zero-latency monitoring for Digidesign 002 and 003...
Enter your e-mail address to receive notifications of new comments on this topic...
(You can unsubscribe quickly and easily.)
(You can unsubscribe quickly and easily.)
Discussion on this article's topic...
Erik, Stockholm, Sweden
loudspeakers with built-in DACs as a good thing? Well, it seems like going back into the age of TV set with built-in VCR... someone remembers?
Friday May 14, 2010
Daniel Parker, Las Vegas, USA
I have both analog (Yamaha NS 10 and KRK) as well as Digital (JBL LSR 4328's with JBL LSR 12 inch sub). All being controlled by a Presonus Central Station. I notice a unveiled clarity in the analog amp to NS10 combo that I do not get if I go analog in on the JBL's witch results in two stages of conversion. One on the way out of my DAW... then again on the way in to the JBL's. However when I run the JBL LSR's from the SPIDF inputs... bypassing D to A...I find the difference astounding.I can A B this by switching between the analog and digital inputs with my LSR remote.Thankfully the designers at JBL thought the digital input thing out enough to realize that all digital DSP monitors should include a remote volume control to avoid the scenario of having to control volume from the master track of your DAW. I also noticed that the quality of clocking(jitter specs etc.) has a great impact on your digital speakers. This is because the speakers slave to the clock of the incoming signal. I had the clock on my Digidesign 002 upgraded by Black Lion Audio... and the sound of my JBL's just opened up like the Grand Canyon! So I have concluded that if you plan to go digital ... only buy DSP speakers that come with a remote volume control... and the better the clock in your system before the speakers... the better your digital speakers will sound.
Friday May 07, 2010
Ben, Arizona, USA
I have only two concerns.., three really.
1. A couple of top speaker and amp designers have said that the compnoents of an amplifier should never be sujected to vibrations like those present in a speaker enclosure. 2. If the amp in your monitor fails you have to send the whole unit back for repair, leaving you without the reference you're used to. 3. Often the manufacturer is buildong to a price point which leads me to suspect the quality of the amplifier components in the box. This is especially an issue regarding the lower priced units available for project and home studios. Personally, I prefer to choose high quality monitors and amps individually, mix and match so to speak, and enjoy the flexibilty of being able to change out either monitor or amp if either should fail. Well designed speaker level crossovers are difficult to build , but not impossible. My reference amps are far better than anything stuffed into a box with a driver.., and so are the monitors I use. So, in my opinion, and in retrospect it's not the the AD/DA conversion that's worrisome, converter chips have gotten really good, but the amp, living in a hostile environment inside the speaker cabinet. In passing I have to say that I do have a couple pairs of small "powered monitors", but strictly for convenience when out on location..., and both manufacturers chose to mount the amps on the outside of the box.
1. A couple of top speaker and amp designers have said that the compnoents of an amplifier should never be sujected to vibrations like those present in a speaker enclosure. 2. If the amp in your monitor fails you have to send the whole unit back for repair, leaving you without the reference you're used to. 3. Often the manufacturer is buildong to a price point which leads me to suspect the quality of the amplifier components in the box. This is especially an issue regarding the lower priced units available for project and home studios. Personally, I prefer to choose high quality monitors and amps individually, mix and match so to speak, and enjoy the flexibilty of being able to change out either monitor or amp if either should fail. Well designed speaker level crossovers are difficult to build , but not impossible. My reference amps are far better than anything stuffed into a box with a driver.., and so are the monitors I use. So, in my opinion, and in retrospect it's not the the AD/DA conversion that's worrisome, converter chips have gotten really good, but the amp, living in a hostile environment inside the speaker cabinet. In passing I have to say that I do have a couple pairs of small "powered monitors", but strictly for convenience when out on location..., and both manufacturers chose to mount the amps on the outside of the box.
Friday May 07, 2010
Michael Jones, Orange, Ca, USA
There are those that prefer there audio sampled at 192K and guard the digital audio stream like a Ninja. Others still love an 2" tape and do everything they can NOT to use anything digital. Both ideas still have signal degredation, but I think most young people dont mind digital because they didn't grow up listening to albums recorded on all analog gear. ALL forms of recording color the sound. Even a perfect representation has a color. You just have to pick your favorite color. But subconsciously if you grew up listening to music from the 70's nd 80's you're going to like the sound of the analog units better. A/D conversion will always make it sound "crispy" unless it the converters are really good, and even then color the sound. The more you add, the more "crispy" it sounds. But if the converters are good, and you didn't grow up listening to Bob Dylan you might not mind.
I guess it's all a game of choice by listening. And perhaps, your target audience as well?
I guess it's all a game of choice by listening. And perhaps, your target audience as well?
Friday May 07, 2010
Miss Wonder, Oslo, Norway
So, to be perfectly clear..
..you're saying that on the Genelec 8240A,
any analog signal fed to it would go to an A/D converter,
then to a DSP unit, which among other things split the signal into HF and LF,
then those two (HF + LF) signals goes to D/A converters, then to power amplifiers, and finally to the drivers??
Wow.. if this really is true, then it seems that it's best to never ever use those analog inputs?
Hmm - why not just remove them completely and only keep the digital inputs?
..you're saying that on the Genelec 8240A,
any analog signal fed to it would go to an A/D converter,
then to a DSP unit, which among other things split the signal into HF and LF,
then those two (HF + LF) signals goes to D/A converters, then to power amplifiers, and finally to the drivers??
Wow.. if this really is true, then it seems that it's best to never ever use those analog inputs?
Hmm - why not just remove them completely and only keep the digital inputs?
Friday May 07, 2010
Aleksander, Stockholm, Sweden
It reminds me the story that "you can buy a 100 liter beer in a wooden storage
for $149.50 (in this case studio monitors with digital input), but from the other shop only the wooden storage itself (DAC module) costs $149.50"
So, either DAC or monitors (or both) itself are cheap in this combination.
for $149.50 (in this case studio monitors with digital input), but from the other shop only the wooden storage itself (DAC module) costs $149.50"
So, either DAC or monitors (or both) itself are cheap in this combination.
Friday May 07, 2010
Shelter Studios, Schaffhausen, Switzerland
Studio monitors are as varied as the people who use them. The brand of studio monitor will always remain a matter of personal choice and hearing profile.
Active monitors are generally a good compromise between space, weight, quality and cost. Passive monitor solutions still deliver the best result but leave little latitude for compromises and can be significantly more expensive and demanding than their active counterparts. In the matter of DSP monitors and irrespective of brand I am of the opinion that ADAC's have no place in the signal path of any peripheral equipment and that all signals entering or leaving the digital domain must be analogue signals. Leaving aside the synch and jitter issues, it is in my opnion unreasonable to suggest that a high grade studio AD or DA converter that requires a 19" rack to house it, could be replaced by a small board fitted in a monitor or an even smaller board fitted in a microphone for that matter. Having tried among others the Genelec DSP solution I am convinced that analogue is still the best approach.
Active monitors are generally a good compromise between space, weight, quality and cost. Passive monitor solutions still deliver the best result but leave little latitude for compromises and can be significantly more expensive and demanding than their active counterparts. In the matter of DSP monitors and irrespective of brand I am of the opinion that ADAC's have no place in the signal path of any peripheral equipment and that all signals entering or leaving the digital domain must be analogue signals. Leaving aside the synch and jitter issues, it is in my opnion unreasonable to suggest that a high grade studio AD or DA converter that requires a 19" rack to house it, could be replaced by a small board fitted in a monitor or an even smaller board fitted in a microphone for that matter. Having tried among others the Genelec DSP solution I am convinced that analogue is still the best approach.
Friday May 07, 2010
Patrick Chazuka Banda, Livingstone, Zambia
Hallo,
Though we don't have such facilities in Zambia, personally i 'd like to have those digital speakers so that our Zamrock should have a heavy effect. Iam yet to order a set.Please help me, we have a lot of good musicians here.
Though we don't have such facilities in Zambia, personally i 'd like to have those digital speakers so that our Zamrock should have a heavy effect. Iam yet to order a set.Please help me, we have a lot of good musicians here.
Friday May 07, 2010
Daniel, Utrecht, Netherlands
Hi, do agree with the general story, have speakers with ana and digi inputs myself, but I use the analogue connection for a simple reason... If you use digital, then the only way to control the volume is to use your master fader in the software you are using. (unless the Genelecs have a remote control to adjust volume like the DynAudio Airs have)
Listening at low volume would mean that you are listening to an 8-12 bit signal...
Let alone the situation where your software crashes and does a noise burst at maximum level...
If your AD and DA converters are of good quality (and you may assume that Genelec will use good quality AD) they will not noticeably degrade the sound, and as far as they do it is only in playback, because your bounce will be without these conversions...
And the speaker crossovers will still process in the digital domain...
All in all there is a bit to say for both options, but I prefer analogue...
Listening at low volume would mean that you are listening to an 8-12 bit signal...
Let alone the situation where your software crashes and does a noise burst at maximum level...
If your AD and DA converters are of good quality (and you may assume that Genelec will use good quality AD) they will not noticeably degrade the sound, and as far as they do it is only in playback, because your bounce will be without these conversions...
And the speaker crossovers will still process in the digital domain...
All in all there is a bit to say for both options, but I prefer analogue...
Friday May 07, 2010
UPDATE - Posting of comments has been disabled. RecordProducer.com has been targeted by a botnet posting spam comments. The facility to post comments will return when this problem has been resolved.
We welcome your addition to the discussion on the topic of this article. If you feel that the article is inaccurate in any way, please let us know by e-mail at . We read all messages sent to this address but we cannot promise a reply.
 |
A good manager is hard to find. But why do you need one in the first place? And where are you going to look? Read more... |
 |
Delay is one of the simplest yet (currently) under-appreciated effects available. But how do you work out the correct settings? Read more... |
 |
Everyone knows that you should compress the snare and kick drum. But why should you do it, and how should you do it? Read more... |
 |
Some microphone and instrument preamplifiers have a variable impedance selector. What kind of difference will it make to your sound? What are you missing if you don't have it? Read more... |
 |
It's exciting for a school to have a music recording studio installed. But getting it working and keeping it working are often two very different things. Read more... |
 |
Where do you make your production decisions? In the studio? No, there's a better place than that, somewhere you can get some peace and quiet... Read more... |
 |
The ADK A-48 Vintage Valve microphone features no fewer than nine polar patterns. Is this overkill, or the ultimate in fine tuning? Read more... |
 |
An Australian court has recently decided that a song that is almost a national anthem rips off another song written 49 years previously. And someone is going to have to pay... Read more... |
 |
Push your levels too high and you will break the bounds of your system's capability. But will a limiter make things any better, or simply act as another source of distortion? Read more... |
 |
An RP reader wishes to improve the sound he gets from his microphone. Is this possible, or does he need a better mic? Read more... |
 |
Early mixing consoles had quadrant faders instead of the linear faders of today. Do they just look pleasantly retro, or do they have advantages we have now lost? Read more... |
 |
Do you suffer from dull, lifeless sound? Do you wish you could have just that little extra sparkle? With the right preparation, you can! Read more... |
 |
An RP visitor asks how he would record a symphony orchestra. Does it need sixty microphones? Or could you do it with two? Read more... |
 |
We used to be in love with MIDI. But you hardly hear of it these days. Has it gone away, or is it just keeping quiet? Read more... |
 |
It is probably the most common ambition in music. But many people want to become a record producer without really understanding what it means. Here's the primer... Read more... |
 |
If your drum reverbs are hanging around too long, they could be confusing your sound. How long should a drum reverb last? Read more... |
 |
If your microphone sizzles like a frying pan full of eggs, bacon and sausages, clearly there is a problem to be solved. Read more... |
 |
What will happen if you use an uncleared sample on your recording? Can you sample legally if your use is only private? Is it safe to use samples you find on the Internet? Read more... |
 |
It's a strange world where you can buy a secondhand analog tape recorder for less than the price of some tape emulation plug-ins and devices. But which will give you the most authentic sound? Read more... |
 |
All live sound mixing consoles have pan controls. But there are very good reasons not to use them. Not if you respect your audience, that is. Read more... |
You Could Be Making PRO Recordings In Your Home Recording Studio...
Music Production and Sound Engineering Online Course.
Turn your home recordings into
PRO recordings in just 12 weeks.
Sign up now for the FREE COURSE TOUR!
An Introduction to Compression: Basic Compression
"An Introduction to Compression: Basic Compression" shows you the science, technology and art of compression. From threshold through ratio to make-up gain, "An Introduction to Compression: Basic Compression" explains all of the foundation knowledge you need to know. Covers all the basic compressor controls, and compression techniques for dynamic range control and musical enhancement. If you don't know the material covered by "An Introduction to Compression: Basic Compression" then you simply don't know compression. An Introduction to Compression: Basic Compression
The Guy Barzily Microphone Test at Abbey Road Studio 2
Hear ten PRO microphones on male vocal, recorded in studio master quality at Abbey Road Studio 2. The tests include the ultra-classic RCA 44BX 'Elvis' ribbon mic, the equally classic AKG C12 vintage tube, plus eight other mics you NEED to know. PLUS video recordings of all of the tests in this Multimedia Set™. Mic list: AEA A440, AEA R84, AKG C12, Beyerdynamic M160, Blue Baby Bottle, Bruel & Kjaer (DPA) 4011, Neumann U47, RCA 44BX, STC (Coles) 4038, Violet Design Flamingo The Guy Barzily Microphone Test at Abbey Road Studio 2
The Chilli Gold Microphone Test at Abbey Road Studio 3
Hear nine classic microphones on female vocal, recorded in studio master quality at Abbey Road Studio 3. The tests include TWO classic tube Neumann U47 and TWO classic tube AKG C12 mics, plus five other mics you NEED to know. PLUS video recordings of all of the tests. The Chilli Gold Microphone Test at Abbey Road Studio 3
The Charlotte Roel Microphone Test at Abbey Road Studio 3
Hear nine classic and modern microphones on female vocal, recorded in studio master quality at Abbey Road Studio 3. The tests include classic tube Neumann U47 and AKG C12 mics, plus five other amazing mics you NEED to know (some costing as little as $300!). PLUS video recordings of all of the tests. The Charlotte Roel Microphone Test at Abbey Road Studio 3
The Nicola Dines Microphone and Preamplifier Test at Abbey Road Studio 2
Three amazing microphones and two amazing preamplifiers tested at Abbey Road Studio 2. This Multimedia Set™ includes the original Studio Master recordings, 48 kHz and AAC versions for easier downloading, videos in both high and medium resolution, and session notes. You will see and hear clearly the differences between the three microphones and two preamplifiers. Also, each preamplifer is demonstrated in two settings, giving further examples of how they can sound. The Nicola Dines Microphone and Preamplifier Test at Abbey Road Studio 2
The Delon Brooks Microphone Test at Abbey Road Studio 2
Hear ten PRO microphones on male vocal, recorded in studio master quality at Abbey Road Studio 2. The tests include the $6000 AEA A440 ribbon mic, the twin-tube sE Electronics Gemini II, plus eight other mics you NEED to know. PLUS video recordings of all of the tests in this Multimedia Set™. Mic list: ADK Vienna, AEA A440, Audio Technica AT4050, Bruel & Kjaer (DPA) 4011, STC (Coles) 4038, Neumann U47, Rode NT1A, sE Electronics Gemini II, sE Electronics Z5600a Mk II, Violet Design Amethyst. The Delon Brooks Microphone Test at Abbey Road Studio 2
Line Array Loudspeaker Systems
"Line Array Loudspeaker Systems" shows you how the most popular loudspeaker system for pro live sound works. You will learn why the line array is better than any other loudspeaker system for almost any type of venue; the technology and science of line arrays; how to work with line array loudspeaker systems for live sound in practice. Line Array Loudspeaker Systems
Microphone Polar Patterns and Stereo Configurations
Microphone polar patterns and basic stereo configurations are fundamental to audio. Many people have read about them, but few have tested them for themselves. Here, you can hear and see all the basic patterns and stereo configurations recorded at Abbey Road Studio 2. Microphone Polar Patterns and Stereo Configurations
Pro Engineer School Vol. 1
The renowned Audio Masterclass Sound Engineering and Music Recording course in two e-books. Learn audio to professional standards. Maximize your chances in your studio job interview. Vol. 1 Pro Engineer School Vol. 1
Class D Power Amplification
"Class D Power Amplification" starts by explaining how conventional power amplifiers work, including Class A, Class B, Class AB and Class C. It goes on to show how and why Class D power amplifiers are smaller, lighter and more efficient than conventional types. It also goes on to explain Class G and Class H. Essential reading for the live sound engineer. Class D Power Amplification
Electric Guitar Recording Techniques
Hear and see electric guitar recording techniques in this AUDIO and VIDEO Multimedia Set™. Recorded in Abbey Road Studio 3, this Multimedia Set™ features eleven techniques that you can experience in video, or load into your digital audio workstation and mix yourself. Electric Guitar Recording Techniques
The Anna Neale Microphone Preamplifier Test at Abbey Road Studio 3
Hear five amazing mic preamps on female vocal, recorded in studio master quality at Abbey Road Studio 3. The tests include the Avalon M5 (Wow!), Universal Audio vacuum tube Solo/610 and the $50 Behringer MIC100. Can you hear the difference? PLUS video recordings of all of the tests. The Anna Neale Microphone Preamplifier Test at Abbey Road Studio 3
How To Have Effective Rehearsals
If you want your band to be successful, you need to rehearse hard, and rehearse effectively. How To Have Effective Rehearsals shows you how to get the most out of every minute in the rehearsal studio. Follow these guidelines and in weeks your band will be 100 times as good as it is now. How To Have Effective Rehearsals
An Introduction to Equalization
"An Introduction to Equalization" shows you the science, technology and art of EQ. From filters through tone controls to full SSL-style console EQ, "An Introduction to Equalization" explains all of the foundation knowledge you need to know. Covers recording studio EQ techniques, and the important differences in live sound. If you don't know the material covered by "An Introduction to Equalization", then you simply don't know EQ. An Introduction to Equalization
Piano Recording Techniques
Seven grand piano recording techniques and eighteen microphone positions clearly demonstrated in 'Studio Master Quality' audio, together with downloadable videos of the entire session, recorded in Abbey Road Studio 3. See and hear for yourself classic piano microphone techniques and positions - select the combination that YOU like best for your next piano recording project. Piano Recording Techniques